The Source With Kaitlan Collins : CNNW : April 23, 2024 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

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cause, get started today at accustoming.com the source with kaitlan collins. >> next our special primetime coverage of the trump hush money trial continues 9:00 p.m. here in new york, day six now, in the books the began minus the jury with a hearing on whether the former presidents should be held in contempt for violating his gag order. >> no decision on that. then more testimony from david pecker, the former tabloid publisher on his role as eyes and ears and protector to candidate trump from potentially embarrassing stories which he would catch and kill and just a short time ago, we've got some video from cnn affiliate wpvi of the former president. this morning just before the gag order hearing appearing to violate that gag order by talking about prosecution witness michael cohen. >> michael cohen is a convicted liar and he's got no credibility whatsoever. he was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers back now with the

panel, couldn't be seen as john berman has been going through the trial transcript, which just came out and as glean more details from it. so john, what stands out again, this is the transcript, so there's a lot to go through here, but that does provide more details, even some of the word choice that both the prosecutors and david pecker uses. this is where they talk about the august 2015 meeting between donald trump, michael cohen hope hicks is in there for a period of time, and david pecker, the prosecutor, josh steinglass, asked, well, can you describe for the jury what happened to that meeting? please? pecker responds at that meeting, donald trump and michael, they asked me what i can do and what my magazine could do to help the campaign. so thinking about it as i previously, i said, what i would do is that was run or publish positive stories about mr. trump, and i would publish negative stories about his opponents i said i would be your eyes and ears because i know that the trump organization had a very small staff and then he wanted to say, i said that anything that i hear in the marketplace, if i hear anything negative about

yourself or if i hear anything about women selling stories, i would notify michael cohen over i did over the last several years, i would notify michael cohen and then he would be able to have then killed hill in another magazine or have them not published, or somebody would have to purchase them. steinglass asked purchased the negative stories about mr. trump, so they would not get published. me. you mean pec responds that they would not get published? yes i'm jeff, what's the significance of that? >> do you think? >> i don't know. i'm sorry. i know i'm not jazz i felt like what's the okay. what's the crime? okay. so fine there. they're working hand in to have some influence on an election. here's, we've been here for an hour, right? here's what i would like to know i still don't exactly know what the secondary crime is. we heard that there's this misdemeanor that only lives because the statute limitations it's past only lives if there's a felony. my friends says that it's state election law. the professor says it's texas law. many other people say it's federal election law.

it is. and that's why this case has to be very upset. and if it was barack obama sitting there with the same charges, the same facts, be saying the same exact thing for me. not about donald trump. it's about a united states citizen. you think it's a weak case it's the case is the facts of the case. the fact that learned counsel don't know exactly what the other charge is, is insane. >> i agree that when that indictment came out, i think i was sitting right here. i said, okay, the other crime they have to prove falsifying business records to commit and other crime is unclear and a mess and it remains that way until now because even now, the prosecutor said, well, there was federal election crimes. it was electric episode was packs crimes. i don't know where they're getting that from. they overpaid michael cohen so he could pay his taxes but i think the primary theory here is that the other crime is a federal campaign finance violations. and the theory is they falsified these records. it was a $130,000 payment. it campaign donation it campaign expenditure way over the limits. they falsified the

records rather than calling them pay hush money payments, whatever might be an act accounting of it. >> they called it attorney fees, retainer and so there's the falsification and by falsifying those records and enabled them to essentially violate federal campaign finance laws. >> there's a lot of gray area. i agree that but try the case where there was any gray area in your whole career, you never tried a case when you will prosecute shooting another human being, where it was up in the air or it wasn't in the indictment, what exactly you are charging them with every that's every case i tried had gray are the other ones pled out i mean, that's why you have a trial. no, no, no, not with the charge melas the elements of the crime. when the judge at the end of the shroud reads the jurors, here are the elements of the crime. you and i don't know what he's going to say. these felony that would that was committed. i know. i don't know. jeffrey, i think that's right. i think i'm sorry. no, i mean, i think ellie gave a very coherent and aptt summary of the case, which is not really all ability though jeff,

that comes down to the indictment, is it is complicated. >> it is he said he said here when the indictment came out, he's the senior legal guy at cnn and he's got to look at an he's not 100% sure of what exactly the felony is that the president of the united states is charged with that is not america. that's not the way we're supposed to be doing things here. if you told me he took a bag of cash, he took a bribe. he had started people that's for here. we are still figuring out on the second day of testimony f to opening arguments what is the second what is the felony? is it federal election law isn't state election law is a we don't know. that's not the way the system works. you knew that he knows that the us trial guys, jeff, what response? >> i think it is crime is the underlying crime is paying 150, $50,000 to eight to witness 130 and then $150,000 way more than you're allowed to under either state or federal campaign law. and then lying to cover why is

that so which one is state of federal? you just say no? but that's not our system work you're committing a burglary, dancing. if you're committing a burglary to commit a crime therein, you have to tell the jury what is the crime to commit is if it said on the line item, hush money would that have been okay. would that have negating the amounts to much because the amounts excessive and maybe i can boil this down. >> i think because i want to hear more from berman from the trial i think it's gone it's quite clear already and it will be quite clear that one of the substantial motivations behind all of this was to try to impact the election. i don't have much rational question about that, we'll say it just to be clear it may be that the prosecution does make clear in the coming days what crime they say they are highlighting here, what they seem to be doing is laying the groundwork here to say this was a campaign meeting, they asked me what i can do and what my magazine can

do to help the campaign. and the other thing that they establish in this testimony was that it was michael cohen who called for this mean, let me just read you this part. we don't have a graphic then i'll get to part with the graphic. how did this meeting come about? how did you know to go? he says pecker says, i received a call from michael cohen telling me the boss wanted to see me and that's how when i spoke to michael cohen, that's how we would refer fertile donald trump as the boss. >> this is important about this being a campaign meeting. this is being about the campaign and protecting campaign because that is the argument we have heard from a lot of the former president's supporters who say, look, he was concerned about his wife finding out the embarrassment of that didn't want to upset her this was not there was no mention of that in this meeting was all about the catalysts and pecker. and just once that pecker talks about that pecker talks about for a campaign, why this issue of women could be important. steinglass asked, can you explain to the jury how the topic of women in particular

came up pecker says well, in a presidential campaign, i was the person that thought there would be a number, a lot of women come out to try to sell their stories because mr. trump was well-known and the most eligible bachelor and date of the most beautiful women. and it was clear based on my past experience that when someone is running for public office like this, it is very common for these women to call it the magazine like the national enquirer and try to sell them their stories and this was before this was before the access hollywood tape. >> so the actual, the importance of the access hollywood tape in this is that it sort of the the drumbeat got much louder about indiscretions, changed everything. because remember is stormy daniels was shopping around her story and was essentially offering to sell it and they argued that the price was too high and said no, that they weren't interested after the access hollywood tape came out that changed everything. karen mcdougal had a similar experience where initially when you look at the reporting, the offer was quite low for her story, it was someone who had

suggested said, hey, you should tell your story. that guy is running for president. you want to be the one to tell your story. and then she came out with that also to speak to what this is all going to what these people at least believed it was about david pecker researched whether or not he was violating campaign finance laws when they were making the payment to karen mcdougal because obviously incorporations also cannot donate that much money to a political candidate. so he even thought that this was on the brink of violating the law and again, like look, i think i can't speak to the legalities of whether it's state or federal. >> but the way that the system also works in this country is that you can't just have people handing $130,000 to a candidate or corporation having $130,000 to a candidate. that's not how the system works to in order to protect the voter. i mean, there is an interest here in the voter& if we call this hush money, that's what makes it sound. it's a confidentiality agreement there are happening all the time. they're happening right now all over the place. i'm agreement, then

it needs to be disclosed. >> if it's done for a campaign like that. i think that's the that's the idea here. it's what call it whatever you want, hush money confidentiality, but it's for a campaign and there are rules around that. and clearly, david pecker didn't really think that these supporters of the law here is to emphasize what would abbe saying. >> it's not it's it's it was not a legal fee which is exactly what was on the records that let's get one more thing transcript and john, because this is about putting, stuff in. >> well, it wasn't in writing. it was an agreement, whatever it was, it was an agreement initially and not in writing. here's a question from josh steinglass, the prosecutor, were any of the agreements the agreement to print the negative stories about the opponents, positive stories from trump or the agreement to notify michael cohen about potentially negative stories about donald trump or any of those agreements? primase put into writing becker says, no. they weren't put into writing. it

was just an agreement among friends. >> well, here here's why that's significant. i mean, obviously they didn't start using reducing things to writing untold money got involved, but to abby's point i think people may be wondering why is the stormy daniels payment charges a crime, a state crime here, but not the karen mcdougal payment. the evidence of karen mcdougal will come into this case because it's relevant as background, but it's not charged as a crime. and the reason is the state crime here is falsification of business records the allegation, as i said before, is that they did that with stormy daniels because it was really a hush payment, but they called it attorney's fees, but they did not do that with karen mcdougal. it was structured separately. it was structured essentially as a catch and kill that was no falsification. they paid her for the story and then they killed it. >> so the state law doesn't quite apply here on top, which point you were making before. >> yeah, but with karen mcdougal, there was discussion of the trump trump world giving ami basically back that am i didn't do that. and that's the next step that did not happen in that case, it makes

it different from what and rudy giuliani is on television in 2018 saying that michael cohen wasn't doing in legal work for donald trump when he was paid that amount of money. it's higher than the $130,000. it's closer to $340,000. so he didn't have to take attacks it and that is what michael cohen has been $60,000 for his legal work for his troubles because he drew down a home equity line to do this but rudy giuliani, who was still representing trump at the time, is on tv saying michael cohen wasn't doing any legal work for trump when he got this payment. this is what they marked it as. you have a pecker says just the opposite today, he says he's getting all the phone calls from cohen was a different time, but that was that was during the campaign and he's saying that when michael kuilan has paid, which is when trump was in the white house and when they put that in the ledger, that he wasn't actually doing any legal services for trump. >> he was doing this much more head including more breaking news. >> the judge just handed the defense another setback that plus devlin barrett from the washington post, who was in court today. we'll be right back. >> you know, i spent a lot of time thinking about dirt at

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it hush money to stay silent? >> yes the story was coming out again i was concerned for my family and their safety. i think some people watching this are going to doubt that you entered into this negotiation because you fear for your safety, they're going to think that you saw an opportunity. >> i think the fact that i didn't even negotiate, i just quickly said yes to this very strict contract and what most people will agree with me extremely low number is all the proof i need you feel like if you had wanted to go public, you could have gotten paid a lot of money to go public and it out it out. >> i know for a fact, i believe without a shadow of a doubt in my heart. and in some people argue that i don't have one of those, but whatever that i was doing the right thing. i turned down a large payday multiple times because one, i didn't want to kiss and tell and being

labeled all the things that i'm being labeled now let's stormy daniels and 2018 when we're breaking news and i just in judge juan merchan tonight denying the former president's effort to subpoena information from stormy daniels, including her communications with other potential witnesses in the case, back down with the panel, also joining us is the washington post devlin barrett, who was in the court today. >> what's out to you from what you saw today in court? >> so a lot of what david pecker is talking about so far aren't really crimes, but there's sort of setting a setting a stage in setting a scene for this, he's the tour guide to this case so far. but the other thing that really stood out to me was while none of this may be crimes the person he's describing donald trump behaves like a jerk. and i think that can be really, really painful for pad for a jury that came out through pecker's testimony today, right? >> i mean, you're describing a guy who's who knows he has apparently when he's running for president like one of his first like meetings, he's

gotta have are an important meeting has got to have it's like, okay, how do we keep women quiet about telling stories about me that's not great. jurors i think are especially attuned to who's likable in the room. and the stories david pecker were telling. we're not stories about a likable person. >> how does david pecker come off on the stand to the jury? do you think i mean, what does he is dreaming? >> usually cheerful and chipper through this process, like he laughs sometimes very loudly, which good for him? like he's not the one on trial but it is his longtime friend. you know, they've been friends for decades. he he concedes very cheerfully, again, that trump was very good for his business. >> he committed i needed trump to sell magazines and that's part of why he made this deal with trump during the 2016 campaign. >> i keep obsessing of what must be going through down from his mind, sitting there behind this defense desk watching his former sort of friend, who is a keeper of probably a lot more

secrets about him, then he has lead on what must be going through donald trump's mind. i mean, nothing is is when donald trump became president. >> i mean, this was someone who had a lot of dirt on donald trump and knew a lot about him and had a lot of leverage on him. and obviously, david pecker loved donald trump. we talked about trump's style and what he was publishing. he was someone who when trump first one, the white house for all of this became a thing before ami sayyed, this non-prosecution agreement, which is probably why he's such a good mood sitting on the stand. >> david pecker came to the white house. he was in the oval office. he got a tour of the leaky with the trump tower when he came down the escalator, which i had not realized that he was michael cohen said it's very important for you to be here. >> you've been such a good friend. let's be on i at this point, trump is pretty used to people who worked for him, who were friends with him. turning on him and saying that he's a bad person. i mean, this is actually happening more often than not these days for donald trump. so this is just one in a series of things that donald trump is being confronted by people who were once very close

to him who kept a lot of his secrets to do him who may be idolized him at a certain point now, telling the world, not just the stuff that about stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, but just a mode of operating that suggests that trump is kind of a shady character. >> he should get used to that because it's going to get worse as this trial goes, as certainly when michael cohen takes the stand, when hope hicks if she takes the stand, if kellyanne conway takes us and i'm not so sure that's going to happen, but these are going be people who are really close to them and problem for donald trump here is, this is a structured environment. this is not the bare knuckle political environment. there. >> he can't jump up in sittings to this person face. >> i mean, there's a gag order in place that he's violating. the other thing that struck me today is isn't jarring to be reminded of what michael cohen was before he flipped. i mean, he flipped six years ago, right? it seems like not that one, but 2018 and we're being reminded that michael cohen was a no holds barred unapologetic. we hear this phrase fixer. i mean, that's an understatement to be revived those all right.

>> you guys i knew him yeah. my family is still talks about being in a car when michael cohen called me on the phone and he was screaming at me so loud that they could here in the front seat, even though it was it was the phone was held to my ear. >> i mean, he was the he was the ultimate loyalist, but devin, i thought what your point about, you know, he doesn't seem like a nice person. it's worth room remembering a bad donald trump that a month before he was elected president of the united states, the access hollywood tape came out, not a nice person, not a nice. and he's still one. so all of this stuff about extra-marital affairs and he could still win this, notwithstanding be not a nice person when a lot of the jurors walked in the room, their immediate reaction is a physical reaction to a celebrity that is the first physical reaction. >> but i i do think juries, juries always you seem to really key in on who's a good person.

>> there's a bad person. and watching trump go through the e, jean carroll trial, you could see a physical physical palpable dislike between that jury in him as that trial went on and watching it today, i thought this could be the start of that process repeating it. >> have you noticed any reactions by, without without giving any specifics about the jurors, you noticed any dynamic happening within the jury box? >> i haven't except for this. they are some of the kg is folks. i have seen on a jury panel and long time when they were asking questions, apologies. when the lawyers were asking questions of the panelists, i have never seen jurors giving more practiced and careful and cautious answers. some of the trump lawyer questions they just wouldn't answer. they literally would not answer them because they felt like they clearly felt like it was a trap. and i think the jurors are you know, there's a lot of professionals in that panel. i think the jurors are fairly savvy about how oh questions about bias, questions about what you think of this guy. i think the jury is very savvy

about that, and i think they're being very guarded as they start this process. >> caitlin is point about him being in a jovial mood. i mean, as my son well, let's see how he isn't cross-examination i would stuff that write up a nose in my summation. >> you see all happy is yeah. because he is the architect really, not really the architects, but he's the execution of this conspiracy. he's the one he he does it all. he decides what goes on. >> the cover of the magazine, what doesn't go on the cover of magazines, they could have easily charged him with a conspiracy in this case. >> and not only don't think make them take them cooperation should agreement, they give them full-blown immunity. so she of course, he's skipping on this. >> let me ask off. i mean, isn't that what prosecutors do all the time? i mean, that that between two when they have won the deal, when they have a weak case, when they have a weak case, when they need the cooperator. but if they have the documentation, when they have although witnesses who aren't culpable? no, no, they don't to arthur's point

though, just on the agree with me, it's nice to learn of all i'm gonna do is just raise the possibility okay. i'll take what i could get it done. >> luck david pecker in a lot of these examples, he was the one who said, you need to buy this story. you need to do this. you should get this off the market. if i were trump's defense attorneys, i would be like, well, trump was pushed into this. he didn't really want to do it. he wanted david pecker to help him by writing nice stories about him. and that story is about its opponents. but pecker was the one who it seemed in some of these cases who was pushing the idea of paying money for the stories. so that trump could get it isn't that his expertise, which is why he was in the room, which is what trump asked him to be in the room in the first place to have this meeting thing that what can you do? i mean, what pecker is saying on the stand today was what you pointed out earlier, which is what can you do for our campaign what can

you do for our campaigns? >> but to take us back to that time and what was happening in effect, it had on the 2016 campaign. and look at what that looks like. i keep going back to the senator ted cruz stories and where there were stories out. marco rubio and ben carson. but the ted cruz ones were especially agree just where he felt the need to come out and respond to them. trump was commenting publicly about it, and foxx interviews, i think we have this moment where ted cruz had to come out on the campaign trail and say that this is story that was published in the national enquirer, wasn't true. and he got close so that a new and did until the wall street journal ever started reporting on this, that it is david pecker and donald trump coordinating we don't have the moment, but he came out. he said, i know is tomorrow over positive or negative stories and the decision to pay to take stories out of the marketplace.

>> i think it is the payment here that is the most important part of the decision to immunize. david pecker is going to be a difficult one for the reasons that arthur pointed out, because that was a decision decision made by the heads by the southern district of new york a few years ago when you're making that decision, you have to do a calculus. there's no science to it. you say, well, do we need this person's testimony?& is it worth giving a free pass of what are we going to get out of it? the decision was clearly made, were more interested in building a case against higher-ups, but there's some jury appeal to the argument that arthur is articulating right now, which is folks, how is this fair the guy who was running this david pecker as you're describing it, the guy who was running this gets a free pass. he walt scenario testified he waldstein out and they're trying to hang a felony conviction and lock-up. donald trump. how is that fair house that equity either one of you, how hard is it? >> just to get full-blown immunity from the fed's, they'd only knew that up my knees but if an easy but i think elie was raising exactly what the defense will argue.

>> i think there's a response to that which is who benefited from this conspiracy, who got elected president in the united states. but both of them david pecker was president and the united states where he showed that he testified he sold a lot of magazines that i made a lot of money i needed him. but but his testimony he didn't violate campaign finance laws. >> we don't know if trump did either. >> well, he also said that there was no financial benefit for killing, right? >> for the national inquiry firearm, it was it was better for them to take bad stories about trump off the market. maybe with the exception of the alleged loved child story that turned out to be false, i think pecker was actually intrigued by the potential, if that were true, to run it, maybe after the election. but generally speaking, they didn't want to run negative stories about trump, but they didn't want to run it, not because it wouldn't have been profitable, because trump story sold. they didn't want to run it because david pecker didn't want them because positive it seems that the national enquirer audience was positively inclined toward

trump. >> so there is a kind of, it's not just any target, was not any trump's story, but stories aggrandizing trump worked well for their audience. >> is that what you found when absolutely. i mean, it was i mean, i saw the graphs that trump and this was surprised to pecker when i was talking to him in 2017, he said, well, you know, i wanted to help my friend, so we started we ran stories, but then we saw that they worked. >> so get a benefit. >> you just got do you sell my dear friend, he said he didn't get to dig in a better and better thank you very much for joining us. >> we've got to take. a quick break coming up next to the former president, still venting about the trial, taking him off the campaign trail. the question is, is this all helping or hurting his candidacy? answers on that did you know there's no t in skechers what he's told about. he is always been scheduled see sketches, snippy is ten, these sketches, slip bands he's a

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photo on your phone install the free keepsake app. we would love a chance to frame it for you. >> i'm natasha bertrand at the pentagon. and this is cnn welcome back to trump on trial here with the team in new york

during about the day's events in the courtroom in lower manhattan. >> mitt romney was asked about the trial today. here's what so i think everybody has made their own assessment of president trump's character and so far as i know, you don't pay someone $130,000 not to have sex with you? >> mitt romney, breaking out of the shell but he fax yeah is on his way out and keep it real doug, hi is joining us republican strategies. >> what are you hearing from people in republican circles mean? you hear trump's allies arguing. he just wanted to make this story go away to protect his family. >> well, to protect his family, but also to protect his political campaign. and what i hear often is it really depends on who you talk to, but of the trump corps base, none of this matters. it's all baked in for donald trump and whatever happens is we've learned is great and glorious for donald trump. not exactly true. the other thing i'm hearing is a

lot of concern that if he is convicted on this, regardless of the fact that most republicans feel that this is the most political of the cases against donald trump that it convicted donald trump will struggle to some extent whether that's 1% or 4% with voters in pennsylvania, arizona, north carolina, and so forth. if he's convicted, it's a very very real problem for him. and then there's the operational part. donald trump is right. he can't go to all those states that he needs to because he's going to be in a courtroom during the week. so it'll be a weekend warrior going to campaign rallies, but he can't do what joe biden's doing during the weekdays. >> how much? even at the height of a campaigner at this stage of campaign would he normally have been out doing rallies in various places? he hasn't been out a time since super tuesday, so he's doing like one or two a week at most. and so his complaint that this is denying him an ability to be out there. it's constraining him. he can't physically plan a rally. he does have to actually be in the courtroom four days a week but they didn't have a ton plant. he did have a rally scheduled and saturday in north carolina, it was canceled because of the weather, but i think they're looking ahead to

what this is going to look like as he wants to at fundraisers, you needs to be raising money to compete with what the biden and the democrats have race that has really been their sore point on this logically though, you, when i sit sure defendant, yeah, i'm working and i'm stressing out, but it's still life. >> like i know i'm going out that door no matter what happens they may be going up that the sayyed door and it's all encompassing. i don't care how this is an e felony is the lowest nobody thinks, judge, mug shots, putting him in jail, but he's definitely not sitting there thinking about strategy thinking about fundraises. i mean, maybe he drifts off every once in awhile, but he's looking at this guy, david pecker right now, who knows and god knows, you asked early like, what's running through his mind and it's going to take up four weeks of his life. could be occupied, run for president. >> can i ask you how much do you think republicans liked the idea of how much emphasis trump? just putting on his martyrdom. it's like thereafter me. >> it seems like every time you see trump publicly, he's complaining about the cases

against him is that is that something that's motivating beyond his base? >> is that's effective for the base. it is rallying cry number one. beyond that, as you start to get to voters who were more concerned learned about, think of the top ten issues that we could talk about, this sort of distracts from that and they don't like that.& to caitlin point, big big term and political campaigns, donor maintenance, donald trump is not able to do that now whether it's at a lunch here in new york or somewhere at mar-a-lago during the week because he's in a courtroom that's very important. he's not going to do a ton of rally is it this point? but he should be doing more donor maintenance than he's able to. it's one of the reasons you're starting to hear people say, perhaps they may announce a vice presidential nominee early so that that person can do some of that. >> the other part of this 2015 2016 in the minds of most american voters was eons ago. it was so long ago. but most people don't care to remember any of this stuff.& this trial day by day is unearthing all of these stories. we were just

talking about whether trump sounds like a good person or a bad person while it's reminding people that he had all these accusations against him of infidelity and affairs that he used tabloids to smear his political opponents that's when he knew those stories were false. all kinds of things are going to come up in this trial. whether he is convicted or not, politically, that is a disaster for donald trump because he wants to run just on maybe the first two years of his presidency he's not going to be able to do that anymore because from now until november, it's gonna be a constant drumbeat of this case, of the other federal cases. that's going to be making democrats case against donald trump, that he is just a mess. he's a, he's a bag of controversy rolled up into a former president in my role as an amateur political go pundit, i've tried to ask the question, who is this going to sway? who is the outcome of this trial going to sway? there's actually pulling on this by political that showed that 36% of independent set a conviction would make them less likely to vote for donald trump. 9% said it would make

them more likely. not sure how that works. but even if you net that out, that's a lot of independence it has to be. i mean, i think everyone is familiar with the story you're interested, what you think dug it has to be people who just say, look, even if i might be inclined towards donald trump being a convicted felon is too much baggage to put someone in the white house. yeah, i remember the day after the access hollywood tape that morning i was at a political campaign event for richard burr in north carolina in raleigh and that's the base who shows up at a political rally on a rainy saturday morning. >> they wanted to make sure that burr was standing by trump, whether he approved of what donald trump had said or done what have you. but that's the base. >> if you're one of those voters that doesn't like donald trump, end doesn't like joe biden. this does not help donald trump chaos is not good for donald trump. i mean, it's just not going into the 2020 election. one of the big things that voters really disliked about trump was just the fact that everything around him was always controversial. it was

loud. he his political opponents, even in this republican primary, argued that he's not a good role model. i can't think of another case that more exemplifies this idea that trump as a person may not be the type of character that you want as president. that is just a narrative that is not positive for him, putting aside whether or not the jury comes back with a guilty verdict. >> caitlin mentioned his ted cruz sound while ago. i don't remember that we didn't have we do have it now, but i think it's because i hadn't actually seen it before, but he is pointing out the relationship. this is when the national enquirer had put cruises father on the cover and a story that was completely made out which david packard admitted on the stand today. here's ted cruz talking about the relationship between donald trump and david pecker the ceo of the national enquirer's an individual named david pecker well, david, his good friends with donald trump. >> they have a friendship that goes back for many years. in fact, the national enquirer has

endorsed donald trump he said he must be president. >> i had nothing to do with the national enquirer story. and frankly, i hope it's not true because it's pretty bad so ted cruz got one thing wrong in the extended version of those comments, which was he implied it was roger stone who is acting as the emissary. >> would david pecker and donald trump, obviously as we now know we'll hear from him on the witness stand. it was michael cohen who is doing all of this but but what ted cruz got closer to than really anyone did at that time was that relationship between the two of them and then it was not a known entity, a known quantity like it is now, like we saw the details coming out. and you saw donald trump also doing other interviews about the claim that ted cruz is father was involved with lee harvey oswald trump would go on tv and say, well, the national enquirer has gotten other things, right? you know, would point to john edwards& he'd say, well, they haven't denied it, you know, even though there were these strenuous denials from marco rubio and ted cruz. and it's just remarkable also

given marco rubio today was asked about this this and kinda mocked the national enquirer, even though he's someone who is on trump's vp shortlist right now. and you see the impact that david pecker saying, yeah, when marco rubio is surging in the polls, we were putting out negative stories about him. >> i was thinking about what what you said about the political poll and 9% of people say they'd be more likely to vote for trump if he got convicted. i'm trying to think. all right. what would that be? i think that would only be an i think the prosecutor said in the courtroom today about these violations of the gag order. we're not asking for jail. we don't want gel and i think they said because that's what he wants. he wants us to put him in jail because i think i think people would say, wait a on an e felony and a violation of a gag order, you're putting him in jail. >> many voters are calling it an e felony, but i take your point for being with us still ahead. today's gag order hearing did not go well for donald trump will talk to retire, judge, who's no judge. juan merchan for more than a decade on how she expects him

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can get a little messy. >> good thing. there's resolved love the love, resolve the mess we mentioned at the top, donald trump continues to attack michael cohen calling him a liar with no credibility in a new interview released tonight, despite the gag order barring him from attacking witnesses in new york we will try it's far from the first time that trump has publicly targeted cohen or any of his other perceived enemies do ranged. jack smith, have you ever heard of jack smith did the range what i call this judge, is a lunatic and if you've ever watched him and the attorney general may be worse, maybe where she ever watch here i will get donald trump and the attorney general's a total of cheese, a corrupt person a terrible person driving people out of three my letitia, james the corrupt attorney general of new york you have a racist attorney

general. >> i have a trump-hating judge with the trump-hating wife and family. >> what else can you expect from a trump haiti, clinton appointed judge joining says judge, kill, excuse me, judge, jill kohn visor, former new york state supreme court justice, who is known the judge overseeing this case. >> judge juan merchan for more than 15 years judge. welcome. do you expect him do you think to rule on the gag order soon? >> i think he probably will. i think it is typical of judge merchan to take his time and be thoughtful about out the process. and that ties and that is across ties and get it right. i've said on this show before, i think that the gag order is a challenge for the judge because he does want to get through the process. and of course, finding donald trump a few thousand dollars doesn't mean that much jailing him well he could he has that is within his rights. do that for 30 days. the legislature hasn't given him a whole lot a whole lot of tools. but at the end of the day, it appears that donald trump is baiting this judge and

perhaps wants that. so that is his constituents will be appalled and up in arms and he loves that riotous congress you'd divide the moment in court today. judge toal todd blanche, that he's losing credibility with the court i mean, you've been on the ventral long time. what how did you read that moment? >> that moment was i think judge merchan telling him your argument is just not making any sense and i'm hearing you. i'm listening and give me a good argument, helped me through this, but you're not doing that. you're losing credibility council. and it was remarkable because it was the prosecutors had gone through each of where they said these violations happened, and essentially, we're saying this post, this post, this comment, and the judge was asking todd blanche, will if you're saying that he's just defending he himself zero point to that moment. >> and i read that the transcript, todd blanche never points to a specific moment and that really is seemed or things kinda careened off the rails for todd blanche, there are hearings as a lawyer that go well, there's hearings that are so sow and there's hearings that are bad. this was a

debacle for todd blanche. i mean, it was embarrassing for him& to here, the judge openly say you're costing yourself of credibility when here's how bad it got. this is the quote that i remember at one point. so remember donald trump reposted this quote from a fox news personality. but it turned out that donald trump had manipulated it. the judge asked todd, blanche and todd blanche had to say this in court, quote i wouldn't use the word manipulation, your honor, but the rest of the quote was not part of the quote. that is the definition of manipulation. so this was, let me just tell you one thing. todd blanche has gone through a little bit of cultural shock here because like me, he came up as a prosecutor, a federal prosecutor. you guys know, nobody is as cushioned as a federal prosecutor and now he's got to deal with something ever had to deal with as a federal prosecutor, which is a client, and probably the world's most difficult client, whispering in his ear and passing them notes the whole time. so it's a tough road, but he lost a lot today. >> but isn't the real message of merchan's upset today? it's really a trump. it's not a lawyer. i mean, it's the

person who put the lawyer in this impossible position of defending the indefensible is the client, not the work. and judge, i wanted to just ask it. what would you do? okay. you're the judge. what you've got someone a violating a gag order repeatedly. >> what do you do this is a unique situation, right? >> so i have had to deal with god gordon i've had had to deal with unruly lawyers and unruly clients of lawyers. this is unique to some extent, what would i do? i would not put them in jail. i think that's what he's looking for at this point at some point, maybe maybe you have to i don't think we're there yet. you'll find him. you let him know this cannot go on and if it does, there's gonna be additional punishment again, back to the legislature where there's not a whole lot of rome. but yes, you'll find them. he complains about it and you move on. the point is, this judge has a responsibility to ensure the fairness of the proceeding. and is why the gag order laws are in place, not necessarily to

punish, but to maintain order. and that is what judge merchan has done with some grace in this case, in the face of an extremely difficult defendants and attorney, it also seems clear he doesn't want this thing to go off the rails. he wants this to keep the trials begun. it's well into it. he wants it to keep moving forward. he doesn't want this to this kind of stuff. >> if i can just defend todd blanche. i mean any of us you try cases if you're in the heat of the moment, this is one little piece of what happened today. you do the best job you can under that pressure the whole world is watching this guy. and i think you're right. i don't he's not i'm not saying bad about him. he's not some veteran criminal defense attorney. he hasn't tried 30 criminal trials as a defense attorney. i don't know what he did in the prosecutor's office, but what you're saying about a judge in the southern district of new york? they they're almost like having another prosecutor in the room and they take very good care of

their prosecutors. and this is culture shock. it is culture shock. let me ask you as a defense attorney, if you have the client from hell, who's passing, you know, two things they know everything and what do you how do you do that? >> how do you deal with that? >> well, there's some language that i can use because of the fcc rooms and things like that. and you just tell them, look, bro, this is your life on the line. i've been doing this for 32 years. you have been doing this for five minutes. so you're going to let me do my job and defend you or just get someone else because just chill bro, you've got to just chill and let me do my thing. but dollars, even if he was the president, united states have music get to what else that's what he would just do. donald trump number you can't get someone else right now. the judge won't the judge won't can also see is the best attorney he thinks he is. you can also say, i've been doing this for seven years, though. >> he doesn't know. he doesn't know the rules and you mentioned about having a sidebar. there are times when you like and that's why the relationship between the defense and the judges so important. there are times where you have a sidebar, which

means no one can hear that the media, no one, it's off the record and you like, judge, i'm in a tough situation here and here's the keywords. just let me make my record. and i'll back off. >> and you just go on win. it reminded me and probably youtube abbe of the white house press secretary is always having to defend trump's tweets and suss them out. and here's what he meant and repost or retweets we're not endorsem*nt. i mean, it was this cycle that every press secretary went through, sean spicer said they were official white house statements. but what's different? about this and what's different for this sure. >> baby top alleged does have experienced doing this. well, he's doing it now and he's representing the former president in the first criminal trial ever. and what we're seeing that's different about this is donald trump's words are being used against him. he's being held accountable for them in a way that he's never been before, although i do wonder what is ultimately the impact of trump violating this gag order on the actual case? this is what trump is calculating, is that he might be irritating the judge. he might be annoying his

attorneys. but when it comes to the jury they're looking at the evidence and he gets to influence the public. but it doesn't really affect the case because the judge is not going to put him in prison. and until until that happens, nothing is going to happen i was living there. >> i want to thank everybody are special primetime coverage of the trump trial continues next next, stuck at the dmv. and i think i'm late on my car insurance good thing. >> the general gives you a break with flexible payment options. let's get you a break while you wait. >> what is this place his are ten vip vending machine, shark i think i can get painted license wait till the driving test now that's a park job for a great low rate go with the generals, switch to shopify and sell smarter at every stage of your business take full control

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side support blood pressure and improve heart health. rush to walmart and find total bee's knees night with abdullah. next on cnn closed captioning brought to you by mesobook.com her firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. >> if you or a loved one has been diagnosed with ms ophelie oma call us now donald trump essentially dares a judge to fine him or sent him straight to jail. >> this is a special edition of news night, the trump hush money trial. good evening. i'm abby phillip, and i'm kaitlan collins. we are here in new york and today you saw a tab lloyd king, who was all too willing to do donald trump's bidding, giving an unvarnished view of the former president of the united states. i'm talking about david pecker, the former national enquirer her boss, who

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Kaitlan Collins is chasing the facts, asking the tough questions and connecting with her sources.

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Donald Trump 40, David Pecker 23, Michael Cohen 20, Us 12, Pecker 10, New York 9, Karen Mcdougal 7, Todd Blanche 7, Ted Cruz 5, White House 5, Daniels 4, Marco Rubio 4, Merchan 4, United States 4, North Carolina 3, Arthur 3, National Enquirer 3, Cnn 3, Juan Merchan 3, Comcast Business 2

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